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Why don't we get anything done?


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I think there are a couple of threads running through this particular discussion.


happen has concerns about optics, which probably should be addressed, but my personal belief is that these are less important, given that so few newcomers even exist, and those that do generally auto-shit on torque because it's not unity when what they really want is free unity pro with source code.


and duion.. who doesn't believe in natural laws, or physics and has not a single fucking clue about manpower requirements and seems to think that the SC used magic to make code appear, everything discussed here is as a direct result of there being just 3 main devs who do 99.99% of the work (unpaid, part-time, and mostly unthanked) with others chipping in here and there with bug fixes and mini features. Seems to also be completely unaware that when you have half as my workers you get half as much work done and expects 10 people can do the same work as 100



I also disagree generally about providing fucked up branches, there are enough issues without people constantly bitching that fucked up branches are fucked up, this is unnecessary agro, why? because the majority of users don't remotely understand alpha or beta or testing, the majority of people getting into game dev now aren't even devs. At best they are modders and game engine people are trying hard to make all their engines into modder friendly tools to cater to that crowd, and most of them fail spectacularly, the only real successes are unity and unreal, people keep calling out the Godot name or urho, and apart from a couple of features imo both of these are inferior to torque I also generally get irked when people keep bringing edge cases into arguments and portraying them as mainstream... stop that!

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@Azaezel

I'm not criticizing that you people are not contributing enough, just mentioning that for example we have no steering committee anymore for maybe 4 years in some cases, at least that is what the forum says those people were last active.


Look here: https://forums.torque3d.org/memberlist.php?mode=team

The only active person from the admin team is Lukas and the only active person from the committee is Jeff, the others you almost never see.

What is so hard on doing a few mouse clicks, kicking them out and ask if someone wants to do the job? I wanted to apply, but I'm not allowed, I was not even allowed to have a shitty moderator role to delete the rampant spam that accumulated already over months and nobody cared.


Why don't you just let other people do something? Then we do not have to make a big drama about everything every time. It is not very motivating to get ignored all the time.

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Speaking from my own experience jeff and the others let people work on whatever they want to, perfect example my openal reverb and effects implementation. When i went onto discord they were helpful they discussed with me over different features that might be able to be done with this simple implementation being in place first and that was on top of all the pbr and basegame template stuff they were and are still working on atm. Anytime ive had a question it has been answered quickly.

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@marauder2k9

Sure you can work on what you want, that is not what I was speaking about. Did you think I was thinking about that they were physically stopping you from it? That is ridiculous and you know that, of course you want work on what you want, the question is more, if they let you decide anything and they don't. Btw there is no "they" anyway as it was planned as to have a committee, since it does not exist anymore.


You can even make your own fork and work on that how you like, but I try to prevent that, since it just adds extra work for you and your changes will not be accepted into the main repo. For example there is more than one time where I caught people trying to delete features from the engine I use and I don't want to constantly go around and bring those features back in and maintain them myself every time.


Like most times I'm against the decissions made or want to suggest something else than the plan, the answer I get is just something like "Screw you". Sure in their view it is no problem to just delete things they think they do not need or break backwards compatibility where they want, since they don't have a game out that will be broken through it, but people who do are screwed. It is not that big of a deal in most cases since you can patch it back, but it gets really annoying over time.

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the question is more, if they let you decide anything and they don't

and a Steering committee making the choices has 0 impacts on this statement.

 

For example there is more than one time where I caught people trying to delete features from the engine I use and I don't want to constantly go around and bring those features back in and maintain them myself every time.

* citation needed also, list needed

 

Like most times I'm against the decissions made

Duion is against everything that does not agree with his political and ideological beliefs. check the thread about abandoning discord for a simple example, but note that he doesn't list any decisions just like above

 

or want to suggest something else than the plan,

sadly the internet is awash with free speech, making idiotic suggestions is commonplace, which plans specifically do you specifically wasn't to promote that hasn't already been considered for adding to the engine? likely none, just arguing for arguing sake

 

Sure in their view it is no problem to just delete things they think they do not need or break backwards compatibility where they want,

backwards compatibility hasn't been broken yet, and at some point, if there's to be any progression it has to be done, just think how shit all software would be if this notion was never entertained.

 

since they don't have a game out that will be broken through it, but people who do are screwed

if you have a working game then you shouldn't need to upgrade the engine every time, this is plain insanity, what this shows to the world however is that really you don't actually have a game, you have nothing but a reskinned free torque template with a few script mods that you want to upgrade for free on the backs of all the people who put the hard work into the engine, this is like asset flipping but with crappy homemade 'nailed it' art, and pretty much everybody can see that you are literally trying to stop progress on the engine because then it will be too hard for you port your 'game'.


I'm pretty much for jeff shutting this shitshow down now, you've revealed your true self in this last post, and why pretty much nobody in the community apart from mack even deals with you anymore, and I'm pretty sure that's the internet equivalent of a pity fuck.

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Hi, long time lurker here. I registered to weigh in here because frankly seeing the corrosive impact Duion has had on these forums over the last few years leaves me incredibly sad and disheartened.


It's honestly unbelievable how toxic and entitled you behave towards the few devs who are currently working on the engine. In their spare time. For free. The idea that the devs should adhere to your particular vision of what Torque should be in the name of a 'democratic' approach is mind-bogglingly selfish; and the fact you choose straight-up belligerence when you don't get your way, rather than either choosing to contribute or just forking the engine for your own needs doesn't just reflect poorly on yourself - you're dragging the whole public perception of Torque down. I can't fathom the amount of people who must browse the forums, see you throwing a multi-year pissfit, and decide to pass on being a part of the community.


Torque is a brilliant and hugely underrated engine, and the fact you expend so much energy bashing the approach of its developers helps nobody. If you actually cared about the engine's development instead of insisting the entire community up sticks from Discord because Daddy Stallman doesn't like it, you would see that there's back-and-forth work on hammering out 4.0 literally every night.


In short, your behaviour is appalling and I'm really surprised the mods haven't chosen just to ban you and move on.

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I'm largely active in the Discord server, but I felt I was in a position to address some of the contents of this thread from a relevant perspective. Take it for what you will.


The ideas about clarifying future plans, current activity, and existing features is something I've mentioned on a few occasions, and I've suggested ideas which Jeff has agreed with me on, but that have yet to be implemented. The first time I brought it up was nearly a year ago, and it was already something that had been discussed before that, I'm sure. You might think I'd be upset about this, and perhaps I will surprise you by saying I'm not, because I have too many other things going on to do it myself at the moment, and would much prefer Jeff spends his time doing all of the other work that he's pushing out at unbelievable speed. The discussion we had on the topic has been saved, and I can assure you I will bring it back up again. As I'm incapable at present to replace Jeff at the tasks before him, I must necessarily take up other tasks that I am more suited to until such a time that I can usurp the throne.


For the accusations about the course of development and the suitability of the leadership, I just want to say that not only has the community taken on my input in meaningful ways, and in certain cases decided on a course partly based on that input, numerous of the more experienced developers -- particularly Jeff, Azaezel, and Tim, though there are others -- have taken humbling amounts of time to explain or even re-explain nuanced topics to me, helped me troubleshoot complex problems, and in some cases trivial ones. Whenever I present a well-reasoned or researched notion, I will find they are receptive to my ideas, though often I am forced to admit they've reasoned over those same topics more solidly, or researched them more extensively, and I must either yield or go back and discover more evidence to back up my claims. I'm glad that's the case, because otherwise this wouldn't be a community worth being a part of. I've always been of the opinion that an assertion cannot be made in good company without sound and valid logic to support it, and lacking that, the willingness to accept correction.


Obviously, you will find there is more activity on a daily basis if you join the community in our current medium of choice (Discord), but if for whatever reason you're averse to that idea, even on these forums, it would be great to see you lay out what your plans are in detail so we can all follow along. I haven't yet come across any threads where you have presented a problem, its solution, and volunteered the time to see that solution through to completion, but I for one am eagerly anticipating seeing that thread pop up.

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Obviously, you will find there is more activity on a daily basis if you join the community in our current medium of choice (Discord), but if for whatever reason you're averse to that idea, even on these forums, it would be great to see you lay out what your plans are in detail so we can all follow along. I haven't yet come across any threads where you have presented a problem, its solution, and volunteered the time to see that solution through to completion, but I for one am eagerly anticipating seeing that thread pop up.

I explained my ideas and plans for years now over and over again, maybe 5 years or so and all I get is answers like "Screw you", "Fuck you", "You are a troll", "You are toxic" etc sure I'm toxic when I get ignored and insulted all the time, even though I dedicated thousands of hours on creating content I gave away totally for free.


I already gave enough examples like the nonexistent steering committee that nobody notices since many years, but I can give you another one that shows what attitude I have the most problems with.


For example since almost forever like 5+ years ago I started to propose that we need to do advertising like at least get control over eventual social media accounts and at least update them that the engine has been open sourced and is different now etc. So for example I found the engine on https://www.moddb.com/engines/torque-3d and found that it was never updated and still showed the commercial engine from 10 years ago, so I proposed for years to take control of that page and update it. I spoke about it on the meetings of the steering committee, on the forum, in chats etc and people said they would solve it, but nobody ever did anything. So I created a new page on my own, it was deleted by moderators of that page, because they said it already exists, then I told them that the person controlling it is gone and so after long discussion I managed to convince the admins to give me control over that accounts, so finally I thought we can update it and then I gave it over to JeffR, because he was in charge and I did not want to be egoistic. Well he took it over and of course did nothing to change it and when I asked why I just got a "Screw you" as an answer. All I wanted is to update the page with a new description that it is open source now, some screenshots etc would take like an hour of work or so, but nobody ever cared to do it and as I offered to do it I got a "Screw you" as a reply again.


There are so many little changes that would make a great improvement compared to the little amount of work needed to do them, but people actively refuse to do anything, often only because I proposed it.


Then I get blamed for putting people of because of being "toxic" which is subjective anyway, but having no updates or activity in some areas over many years is somehow not putting people off, this is all hypocritical.


I don't demand people to work harder on the engine, it is just those many little common sense decissions and actions that are never done for whatever reason that anger me and what angers me even more is, when I do them on my own, but are then thrown away or ignored by others and I get insulted again for being so egoistic even though I give everything away I do for free.

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This sure seemed to have turned a duion bashing fest it seems to me.

Im not gonna try to get between sides but ill drop my feedback in.


So far my experience with duion is he is usually the first to give advice and actually delivers with ubergame, speed might be arguable but the quality is good.


I dont see the big issue with trying a steering comitee with duion in it, whats the worst that could happen, probably nothing would happen and things go on as they do.

Its not like hes gonna delete t3d or open a gateway to hell.


May i also suggest we save this reorganization for after 4.0 so jeff can focus on finishing business.

Maybe after some time and reconsideration we can discuss this in a more productive manner.

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I dont see the big issue with trying a steering comitee with duion in it, whats the worst that could happen, probably nothing would happen and things go on as they do.

Its not like hes gonna delete t3d or open a gateway to hell.

 

We did. twice. He actively blocked submissions and pointed folks at his repository instead of submitting things. The exact opposite of contribution to the main engine. (the second time was what turned into ubergame so he's already got his fork to control.) Like I said, would have left folks to rant if he wasn't trying to rewrite history to make himself seem pure and the rest of us like assholes. This latest is clearly just a snitfit to try and take more control.

 

May i also suggest we save this reorganization for after 4.0 so jeff can focus on finishing business.

Maybe after some time and reconsideration we can discuss this in a more productive manner.

Agreed.

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We did. twice. He actively blocked submissions and pointed folks at his repository instead of submitting things.

You did twice what? I never was in the committee after garagegames fully left the project. I also don't know how I supposedly should have blocked submissions. I was there as an artist and guiding the visual stuff, I was actually the only one contributing anything, but I was blocked of contributing anything through being ignored. When I was in the committee, it was discussed, that art will not be committed to the main repo, since the size would blow up and will reach the maximum repository size quickly.


I'm not criticizing you for not doing enough, but for throwing everything over board that was planned before, like throw away the steering committee, throw away all plans that were made in it before and throw away the release schedule etc.


And to top it off you claim I try to take control, while you actually already have taken all control for yourself.


PS: This is the old Trello board with the original plans for the engine etc: https://trello.com/b/CsoHkTbH/torque-3d-mit-community-contributions

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I'm not at all interested in bashing anyone, and in fact I would greatly appreciate if the personal attacks could be reduced to something in the range of non-existent.


[mention]Duion[/mention], the problem here might partly be a difference in philosophy, and since this is primarily a game and game engine development community, more credence is given to contributions along those lines, and the philosophy of those most capable and prolific in that department is valued above others; whether or not this is right is a different discussion and one I have little interest in going over, as it is moot. Even in a meritocracy, we have to align ourselves to certain principles and goals over others -- otherwise merit cannot be judged, for obvious reasons.


There is also -- and I hope you won't take this the wrong way -- the very real possibility that you are not suited to public relations work, if the way you express yourself throughout this and other threads is any evidence. If that is an interest of yours, it might be useful for you to first cultivate the necessary skills, before attempting to head such an endeavor for the sake of the community. I know very well what it's like to wish to say something and be unable to adequately express myself, and it's something I've worked long and hard to improve on, and the task is still undergoing. Just remember, please, that sometimes, our actions bring more harm than good, even when we have the best of intentions. I'm sure you know the phrase that follows.

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@suncaller

Are you joking? Where are your credentials that make you qualified to judge who is capable and who not? I have proven myself over and over again over the years, that I'm qualified and able to get things done, you have nothing to show, so why should I bother to argue with you?

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I think our credentials as far as how adults speak with each other show very clearly even within this thread. For the rest, could you kindly point me in the direction of these credentials of yours that you claim exist? I'm sure you're speaking nothing but the truth with your claims, but I've yet to come across anything to back that bluster up. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

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It might help if you go back and actually read what I've said so far; I'm not at all interested in arguing with you to begin with, and even less so as it's becoming clear you have nothing to say but ad-hominem attacks and outright bullying. All you've done so far is prove exactly the points I had made before, far from discrediting them.


As I said, please provide evidence of your superior credentials? Unless you're seriously trying to claim the stuff you have on your site is superior to the work that's gone into the engine over even the past couple of months? If so... Not even remotely close. Try again.

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@suncaller

You wanted to argue if I'm qualified or not and the fact that I released a game and 99% of people here not should be proof enough that I'm at least qualified enough. I'm also one of the best artists in the community.

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Oh, I didn't realize! That's entirely my fault, but now that I've realized that, as well as the vital fact you have in fact completed a game, unlike the rest of these plebeians, I must accept your claim that you are one of the best artists around these parts, although I've seen your art and I personally wouldn't be so hasty to do the same, I can only respect that as two master artisans of our craft, we must by necessity have differing opinions. But I should respect you above these others, at the very least; so sorry for that slight. Still, obviously, I've made way more than just one game, so when I say I'm a better artist than you, as well as a better speaker, writer, historian, mathematician, etc., it would be foolish for you to deny me. So with that concrete reasoning in place, let's settle this petty squabbling and join together in mocking these lesser mortals! :roll:

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@suncaller

So far you have provided absolutely nothing, you have no prior posts, no portfolio, no anything, maybe you are just a sockpuppet account of someone or just followed me to hate on me.

If you have anything, then show it, otherwise I will just ignore you forever.

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Pretty sure this has run it's course now.


Even if it was rather....heated, the topic has indeed brought up some very valid points, and has created some solid ideas for improvements. I've already commented on a few of the points that will be worked on to improve the overall flow and work on the engine and community.


Thanks for the input on everything guys! :)

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