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Linus Torvalds treated people like dirt for decades and issued an open apology promising to change his behavior within hours of the CoC going into effect. No harm came from it, but some good might.

That is not an argument, some people probably are dirt and deserve to be treated like that, who are you to judge that and how is blackmailing people to "be nice" to others going to help anything, if there is any effect of that it will be to create more hate.


PS: You did not even understand my argument, yes he only left the project temporarily, but my main point was not that, but the possible chain reaction of others leaving.

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That is not an argument, some people probably are dirt and deserve to be treated like that, who are you to judge that and how is blackmailing people to "be nice" to others going to help anything, if there is any effect of that it will be to create more hate.

 

Community members treating each other with disrespect and immaturity is why a code of conduct exists for both Linux and here, how do you not see that as an argument?

 

PS: You did not even understand my argument, yes he only left the project temporarily, but my main point was not that, but the possible chain reaction of others leaving.

No, you somehow managed to miss your own point. Mitovo said "In my experience, CoC's are never a problem. . .", you disagreed with that quote in your reply and sited an example where there was also no problem with a CoC but made it sound like somehow there was. There wasn't. I pointed that out.

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In my experience, CoC's are never a problem, and are even welcome by those who naturally stay within their guidelines.

 

NEVER a problem? Did nobody notice the huge scandal when a CoC for Linux was introduced which resulted in Linus Torvalds leaving the project and several other Linux contributors threatening to revoke the licenses for their contributions, which could have resulted in the destruction of the Linux project in total and in the destruction of 90% or whatever of computing infrastructure, since most computers run some kind of Linux.


So just recently a useless CoC almost destroyed most of the computing world, but you don't see a problem in that, if everyone just pretends to be nice to each other.

 

1. Perhaps you have to pretend to be nice to others. I don't have that problem. I suspect most people don't have that problem. At minimum, folks can be civil with one another, or just not communicate at all when even civility isn't possible.


2. The Linux situation was a very different deal, with entirely different circumstances and implications. You're conflating two very different things. I suspect you knew that when you wrote it. And anyway, the sky didn't fall. A new CoC didn't bring the Linux world crashing down. Your example kinda defeats itself. Hypotheticals and "what-ifs" don't make compelling arguments.


It's weird that you're even acting like a COC is some bizarre or unprecedented thing. The vast majority of message forums and online communities require you to accept a CoC before you can even sign up. Some require you to click "I Accept" every time you log in. Some keep it pinned at the top of their forums for easy reference when issues arise. Believe it or not, those communities do just fine. It's unusual for a forum *not* have a CoC than *to* have one. These forums, 'til now, have been the exception, not the rule.


Your histrionics and doom-saying are completely unfounded and, really, kinda silly.


So, yes. I 100% stand behind my statement that in my experience, CoC's aren't a problem for people who naturally stay within them without needing to be reminded. They're only a problem for those who can't, or don't want to. For most everyone on these forums, nothing is going to change. They'll continue posting as they always have.

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I probably have to remind you once again that this CoC was created, because Jeff accused me of saying something negative, which I did not say. So the main reason we are in this situation is, because I was falsely accused of something and nobody cares to be nice to me, even though I did not behave bad in that situation, which makes everything already very hypocritical, since the main reason we have this CoC did not even exist.

It all becomes even more hypocritical as those rules are basically never applied in cases of real bad behavior like insulting people, but are almost always used as a reason to censor people, which it is all about.

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I probably have to remind you once again that this CoC was created, because Jeff accused me of saying something negative, which I did not say. So the main reason we are in this situation is, because I was falsely accused of something and nobody cares to be nice to me, even though I did not behave bad in that situation, which makes everything already very hypocritical, since the main reason we have this CoC did not even exist.

It all becomes even more hypocritical as those rules are basically never applied in cases of real bad behavior like insulting people, but are almost always used as a reason to censor people, which it is all about.

 

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

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I was actually requested in PMs to create a CoC, largely because of exactly what i said when i posted it - we're regularly getting new people, and when 4.0 drops we can expect that to increase more. A bigger community is more challenging to self regulate, so having a specific code of conduct so everyone is on the same page makes things appreciable easier.


I didn't make the CoC specifically for you, and the timing was unfortunately coincidental with your insinuations about other communities(Also, you complain about it not being applied when insulting people, but the first instance in which I applied it had you drawing similarities of another community joining up with ours in discord as being akin to an infection, which most people would find insulting)


As I told you and everyone else before, if you see people hurling insults around, by all means, let me know. I'm trying to put together a list of people to act as Mods(if you want to apply to this, incidently, feel free to PM me) so they can help manage the forums more efficiently, because I can't keep up with literally everything, ergo I'm likely to miss some stuff.


If you feel you've been wronged in a way that would run agrounds of the CoC, absolutely let me know and I'll look into it.

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I didn't make the CoC specifically for you, and the timing was unfortunately coincidental with your insinuations about other communities(Also, you complain about it not being applied when insulting people, but the first instance in which I applied it had you drawing similarities of another community joining up with ours in discord as being akin to an infection, which most people would find insulting)

 

How many more times do I have to explain that I did not do that? I also did not insult anyone, but in fact was victim of being insulted. I discussed the downsides of using Discord in a thread that I created for exactly that purpose. The only thing I said regarding other communities, is that I don't want to join a game development community, where nobody uses Torque and where probably also nobody develops any games, can't you see the logic in that?


Why you try to appeal to people that never used Torque and never contributed to it? If the target group you try to appeal to does not exist here, there is nothing you can gain.


PS: I applied as a mod multiple times now, because I was the only one finding the spam, but I was denied that every single time.


PPS: You should rather setup an existing steering committee, so that you don't have to do everything on your own all the time, you are behind schedule for that task for like 4 years now.

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I didn't make the CoC specifically for you, and the timing was unfortunately coincidental with your insinuations about other communities(Also, you complain about it not being applied when insulting people, but the first instance in which I applied it had you drawing similarities of another community joining up with ours in discord as being akin to an infection, which most people would find insulting)

 

Why you try to appeal to people that never used Torque and never contributed to it? If the target group you try to appeal to does not exist here, there is nothing you can gain.

 

 

That's a weird question.


The only way you grow a community is by welcoming and appealing to new people. And anyway, every person who uses or contributes to T3D started as a non-user/non-contributor. Yourself included.


Are you against seeing this community grow and thrive? Would you prefer it remain insular and mostly static?

That's a sincere question, because I really can't fathom why one would want to discourage attracting new users and contributors to a project they seem to love so much.

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That's a weird question.


The only way you grow a community is by welcoming and appealing to new people. And anyway, every person who uses or contributes to T3D started as a non-user/non-contributor. Yourself included.


Are you against seeing this community grow and thrive? Would you prefer it remain insular and mostly static?

That's a sincere question, because I really can't fathom why one would want to discourage attracting new users and contributors to a project they seem to love so much.

 

Imagine someone wants to grow his football club, but all he does is advertise to the target group of golf players, it is kind of obvious that this does not work well. But it gets worse after 8 years of appealing to golf players to become football players this person did not manage to recruit a single person, but still insists that some time in the future the golf players will convert to football players and continues to appeal to golf players, more than to his own target group, so much that he manages to make his already existing football members leave, since they are so pissed off, because all the club does is appeal to golf players, even though they have no business being in the football club.


And of course I started out as a Torque3D user when I came to this community and if you are a user, you are automatically also a contributor in most cases, but if you are not a user to begin with, you hardly can be a contributor.


The fact is, practices like that had zero success in the past 8 years or however long this community existed, so I have definitive proof that such behavior is completely useless in attracting new users and is even harmful. So you have no basis for negotiation, none at all, you are just insane and insist on being insane in the future. All I'm trying is to show you this reality.

Edited by Duion
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Are you insane or so?

 

And there it is.


This is why a CoC is necessary. Because people like you can't have a civil, respectful conversation without attacking others. This is a perfect example.


I asked a sincere, good faith question. I did not attack you. I did not insult you. And that's what you open your reply with. Wonderful.


Discussion's over.

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And there it is.


This is why a CoC is necessary. Because people like you can't have a civil, respectful conversation without attacking others. This is a perfect example.


I asked a sincere, good faith question. I did not attack you. I did not insult you. And that's what you open your reply with. Wonderful.


Discussion's over.

Ah now I get why a CoC is necessary, it is to censor criticism, so that insane people can cause havoc and destroy everything I work and stand for without me being allowed to even call them out.


If someone does something completely irrational that is devoid of any logic and reason, I'm not allowed to ask if the person is still sane or not? You complain about me not having a civil discussion, but you are the one never making any arguments or disproving my arguments, but making personal attacks against me, which is also very hypocritical.


If me using the word "insane" is all your problem, I can offer to censor myself of that word and if you don't have a civil discussion afterwards it just proves you are a hypocrite.

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Duion, you specifically mentioned people utilizing insults as being in violation of the CoC, and I concurred that yes, insulting people would reasonably be so.

 

It all becomes even more hypocritical as those rules are basically never applied in cases of real bad behavior like insulting people

 

So understand this as being a follow-up specifically to you bringing up how insults would be involation of the CoC when I say you can consider calling someone "insane" when they are engaging in reasonable, civil discourse with you, but saying things you dislike as being an insult, and therefore, as previously established in this very thread in violation.


As you said yourself, you can just simply not use insults, and go on to engage in civil conversation. I know you are capable of doing this, you know you are capable of doing this. So start doing it and don't insult people again.

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If you try to censor any mention of a negative attribute as being an insult, you will end up in a situation, where everyone will go insane and end up in stagnation or self destruction, which is already the case for some people as it seems.


The Code of Conduct rules are total nonsense, they are almost entirely subjective and therefore cannot be reasonably enforced. There is also no background on who demanded a Code of Conduct and why, the only reason I was told, was a lie, it was made up, so who else demanded it and why? It is not that here is so much people and so much going on that there needs to be moderation, there are only like 20 people posting in total here, so it should not be that hard to find out who is the troublemaker. To say "people demanded it" is not a reason, anyone can register and demand anything from anyone, to blindly do what random people demand without bringing a reason is very incompetent.

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Have you considered just not labeling a person with a negative attribute simply because you either don't understand their point of view or disagree with it, and instead focusing on the point of disagreement?


This thread shows otherwise.


Fix yourself.

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Fix what? I cannot fix anything, if nobody tells me what it is about. Those Code of Conduct rules are almost entirely subjective, what is perceived by someone as negative or insulting is totally arbitrary, some people are even insulted by the truth or obvious reality, how you are supposed to solve that? Ban all truth and all reality just because someone is offended by it? Even if you manage to establish perfect censorship here, as soon as people leave this community, as it is very likely as people here develop games and eventually release them to the real world, they will get crushed instantly, because real people in the real world can be totally ruthless and brutally honest. It is extremely insane to try to fix everyone around you instead of just adapting yourself to the world.

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You are consistently failing to separate the action from the actor.


Nobody is saying folks cannot object to an action. What they are saying (and all that this CoC codifies) is that you can and indeed are encouraged to criticize any given act or product. But if the language used is applied to an individual or group and not the act itself then it's downright counterproductive. Just look at how badly your actions have cut yourself off from the rest of the community to see that as a consequence of the continued inability to draw the distinction.


Circling back to the OP to give an example:

 

If the user then goes on to violate the CoC again in a similar manner, not having shown any acknowledgement to their behavior or what they have done wrong, they weill be suspended temporarily(3 days).

If they, after returning from suspension go to violate the CoC yet again, then they will face a ban.

 

This bit seems overly harsh. There's going to be times when folks just flat out have either bad days and leak, or get bogged down in one of their personal blind spots and don't realize they're making an ass of themselves. I'd suggest instead a progressive cooling off period. So 3 then 6, then 9 days. If they haven't cooled off in 2 weeks, then yeah, odds are they aren't going to.


That'd be an example of focusing on the act. Note at no point did I suggest Jeff was some corrupt or compromised dictator trying to impose his will (or whoever prompted him to put it together) in a harsh manner, nor an idiot for not thinking of an alternative himself. Didn't even mention him at all in the objection statement.


Just the proposed act.

That's really all it takes to stay compliant.

Focus on the act.

Not the Person.

That simple.

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The only thing that cut me off from the rest of the community was you switching to Discord exclusively without asking anyone. I did not do anything that cut me off or whatever. Also there exists no behavior you can do or avoid to be cut off or included in a social group, since humans can decide and act totally arbitrary, therefore it is impossible to argue on that basis.

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Circling back to the OP to give an example:

 

If the user then goes on to violate the CoC again in a similar manner, not having shown any acknowledgement to their behavior or what they have done wrong, they weill be suspended temporarily(3 days).

If they, after returning from suspension go to violate the CoC yet again, then they will face a ban.

 

This bit seems overly harsh. There's going to be times when folks just flat out have either bad days and leak, or get bogged down in one of their personal blind spots and don't realize they're making an ass of themselves. I'd suggest instead a progressive cooling off period. So 3 then 6, then 9 days. If they haven't cooled off in 2 weeks, then yeah, odds are they aren't going to.

 

That's a pretty reasonable tweak to the idea. I'll also talk to lukas and see if we can find any kind of moderation strikes marker so it's easier to keep tabs on things. I've seen forum systems where it's a "health" system that comes back over time on good behavior, which I think is a good way to approach things. If it is just a bad day, they get dinged for 3 days temp suspension. After that if they don't continue the behavior, their "health" will come back over a period of time and it'd be like the bad spot never happened as it'd reflect their non-recurrance of behavior.

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That's a pretty reasonable tweak to the idea. I'll also talk to lukas and see if we can find any kind of moderation strikes marker so it's easier to keep tabs on things. I've seen forum systems where it's a "health" system that comes back over time on good behavior, which I think is a good way to approach things. If it is just a bad day, they get dinged for 3 days temp suspension. After that if they don't continue the behavior, their "health" will come back over a period of time and it'd be like the bad spot never happened as it'd reflect their non-recurrance of behavior.

 

Speaking of markers, short of illegal, would make it a point to tag whatever post-instance triggered the banning. Makes it clear to onlookers what exactly triggered a mod action (which in turn makes it easier all around to review it if a *mod* is having a bad day/tripping on a personal pov and reading more into it than was said). Sunlight being the best disinfectant and all.

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