JeffR's Workblog Tangent discussion thread

[Caleb]

There are some interesting (if a bit passionate) ideas in here regarding the direction of torque, it's interface, and marketing. I think there's definitely value in them as well which is probably why @JeffR moved the posts into their own topic instead of simply deleting everything that went off the rails. There is a clear difference in perspectives here though. @Duion largely feels that getting more eyes on Torque as a viable engine would bring in more potential contributors. Sure there will always be window shoppers that don't add much, but is that really so bad? From what I can tell, @Razer suggests that some of these users might feel more comfortable getting their hands dirty with Torque if only it had a more friendly interface and tool-set similar to some popular options which they're already familiar with. I come and go with using Torque a lot, so from what I have seen it has undergone remarkable evolution in the past few years. For @JeffR, @Azaezel, @Bloodknight, and the many more individuals who have been dedicated to making that change happen however, I can imagine it gets more than a little old to see people come by, say "Cool but what the engine really needs is. . .," and then pass on through.

Honestly, it is wonderful to see how much people care about Torque and want to see it continue to succeed as a viable open source engine. Let's just try to remember that just because you're right doesn't necessarily mean someone else is wrong. There's simply a lot of different people focused on different but important aspects. So let's all keep that in mind as we continue this discussion.

TL;DR Play nice or this topic is going into timeout to think about what it's done. ;)

[TorqueFan]

Relevant: https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/security/encrypt-in-transit/why-https

[Azaezel]

There are some interesting (if a bit passionate) ideas in here regarding the direction of torque, it's interface, and marketing. I think there's definitely value in them as well which is probably why @JeffR moved the posts into their own topic instead of simply deleting everything that went off the rails. There is a clear difference in perspectives here though. @Duion largely feels that getting more eyes on Torque as a viable engine would bring in more potential contributors. Sure there will always be window shoppers that don't add much, but is that really so bad? From what I can tell, @Razer suggests that some of these users might feel more comfortable getting their hands dirty with Torque if only it had a more friendly interface and tool-set similar to some popular options which they're already familiar with. I come and go with using Torque a lot, so from what I have seen it has undergone remarkable evolution in the past few years. For @JeffR, @Azaezel, @Bloodknight, and the many more individuals who have been dedicated to making that change happen however, I can imagine it gets more than a little old to see people come by, say "Cool but what the engine really needs is. . .," and then pass on through.

Honestly, it is wonderful to see how much people care about Torque and want to see it continue to succeed as a viable open source engine. Let's just try to remember that just because you're right doesn't necessarily mean someone else is wrong. There's simply a lot of different people focused on different but important aspects. So let's all keep that in mind as we continue this discussion.

TL;DR Play nice or this topic is going into timeout to think about what it's done. ;)

 

I'll simply reiterate the same thing I said in discord on the matter: smothering an observation in bile doesn't make it any more correct or incorrect. Just means it takes that much longer to wade through the spew to get at the point trying to be made, and less likely folks get what they are trying to ask for since it makes it more difficult to parse.

[Razer]

@Razer suggests that some of these users might feel more comfortable getting their hands dirty with Torque if only it had a more friendly interface and tool-set similar to some popular options which they're already familiar with. I come and go with using Torque a lot, so from what I have seen it has undergone remarkable evolution in the past few years.

I gave the observation why so many noobs and new comers pick up Unity and keep using it; if it wasn't so user friendly i don' think new comers would keep using it.

I don't ask T3D to change it's interface, because it is good enough already.

Finally it is only to @JeffR do decide if something should be changed or not.

 

and there you go again offering insults and attributing malice, so yes, I do believe you are a troll, I say so because of your attitude and tone, not once have I disputed any of the things you 'demanded' before you 'used' torque, you speak without qualification on may od the issues, you just make demands before doing any research, but you continue to insult and attribute malice, even after being educated by the people who are doing all the work.

 

It's hard to understand when i say we are already using another engine so we don't need T3D to quickly have X or Y features : it's only ideas

I would like T3D to have a shader editor or some FSM editor , it's an opinion not something i ask, is this hard to understand ? Are ideas and opinions allowed or not ?

What insults did i wrote ? where ?

You are the only one insulting me again with "troll"/

Saying you are someone very angry by nature is really not an insult.

Why do you feel the need to interfere in discussions and call other "troll" when there is things like Godot or features discussed that you really dislike ?

Why do you ask people to stop talking Godot on a tangent discussion ?

Why so angry because of Godot or Unity ? (there is place and market for every engine)

@JeffR Do you again agree someone calling "troll" others ?

Does that follow the good code of conduct ? Or are some people allowed to call others "troll" ?

[Bloodknight]

What insults did i wrote ? where ?

You are the only one insulting me again with "troll"/

Saying you are someone very angry by nature is really not an insult.

Why do you feel the need to interfere in discussions and call other "troll" when there is things like Godot or features discussed that you really dislike ?

Why do you ask people to stop talking Godot on a tangent discussion ?

Why so angry because of Godot or Unity ? (there is place and market for every engine)

@JeffR Do you again agree someone calling "troll" others ?

Does that follow the good code of conduct ? Or are some people allowed to call others "troll" ?

 

OK, lets have a quick look....

Firstly, try to find a single example where I suggested you shouldn't make suggestions, I dare you.

Secondly, try to find a single example where I said any suggestion you made regards engine improvement is dumb, or that I disagreed with improvement, I double dare you.

now...

Congrats on the preview 5 release, T3D is moving in the right direction.

I have few suggestions and i found some issues

The start screen should be a black screen displaying the user projects list only (no more scenes or servers).

I agree with @Bishop about adding some easy projects export options to the menu, without having to deal with Cmake.

Loading times seem very long for the material test scene for what it is.

There is some old dirty bloom effect on the material test scene, can we disable it ?

Finally, what is the roadmap priority about :

- New character physic driven system with capsule and ragdoll collisions

- Support modern character import like GLFT or get Blender 2.8 support

- Add a general game input system no more relying on old T3D code and system, able to map any joystick values or keys to actions

- Adopt a popular scripting languages like C# instead of Torsion nobody knows

- Entity system, and the ability to add scripts to objects

- Better projects organization with scenes management per project

- Easy system to store, read game data and organize data structures, similar to databases.

- XML integrated save/load game system

- Terrain,foliage and water enhancement with modern shaders and lighting

- Cinematic quality post effects : DOF, Aces tone mapping, cinematic bloom

Before i would start using T3D, those are mandatory roadmap items i consider.

 

While i agree 100% with @JeffR to focus on indie games, the majority of indie games are not aiming at AAA graphics, that's not possible for three or ten person team.

 

Exactly a tech demo is very different, it's not a full AAA game.

I don't think someone will make an AAA game with T3D, so T3D should instead focus on usablility and not try to have same features as big engines.

For example give global illumination and cinematic post effects shaders for indies instead of automatic terrain and city generators.

 

While procedural generation tools (terrain, houses, foliage, cities ) are interesting for indies, perhaps it's something T3D could choose to focus on.

 

Beam NG is a vehicle game it's not AAA like Forza Horizon and their team is lot of programers and many vehicle designers

Life is Feudal is also very outdated and not an AAA mmo like Black Desert about graphics, characters and animations.

I agree with you about AAA games teams are not comparable to indies, for example God Of War for PS4 had lot of designers, lot of programmers and many tools developers, lot of animators, and many artists to create all the incredible enviroments.

 

and for the love of God can we stop using Godot as the gold standard, it may have some good features, but it has even more problems than every other game engine out there unless you are making very specific game types, but good look making a high fidelity 3d game with it if that's what you are working on

 

Very angry people by nature will stay very angry for nothing :lol:

(I also don't need to compare T3D no more to others engines and let that to other people)

While it's unknown roadmap, will T3D become as intutive and easy to use about interface, code editor, or models import, about that we also won't make any request (we just don't use when it's too bad workflow for us like CryEngine for example).

 

Torque3D already had more impressive demos than Godot now has, more than a decade ago, they were made or commissioned by Garagegames.

No demo up to date with cinematic post effects, and the lack of global illumination, so i can't find it so so impressive :mrgreen:

 

Or perhaps people active on T3D don't think maketing is really importants and they are perhaps right ?

 

When a T3D dev says the editor automatic file detection and import dialog automatically pop up are not important,

working the old way is better; it's looks like the same mistake of Blender and why lot of people did not use it (before 2.8).

 

My advice would be to not neglect the editor modern interface and workflow or usablility, it must be worked on, it is something that matters the more to new comers and adopters or getting more support.

 

Also, I'm thinking razer as a troll now, his language is offensive and demeaning, he like duion attributes malice to everything he does agree on, he's also constantly shilling godot on top of that.

It's a tangent topic so we are allowed to name other engines, i could replace Godot by UE4 or Unity, you just can't hear any other engines names.

Did you ever tried Godot for example ? Because you should as it will really change your perception about editor, workflow and quick prototyping.

Perhaps you would become less angry to people naming Godot and you would also like T3D 4 to copy some ideas or features making it even better.

It's time to grow up little boy :mrgreen:

 

While some nature angry forum people will stay angry at others :lol:

 

It's a shame this good engine will stay underground and unknown because of old stubborn choice to not do small communication work.

It is like it is unfortunatelly.

 

10 minutes work from one thread, I'm pretty sure I could find more examples if I could be bothered...

And even after you make insults you outright lie and deny it, and then you try to get somebody of authority to do something about it like some 3rd rate European football player harassing referees trying to get other players a yellow card.

As for Godot shilling

in one... ONE thread, the very thread where the development of torque is being discussed, and you show that you have no interest in trying anything, nor interest in doing any research on the matter at all.

so yes, TROLL and SHILL, they are descriptions of behaviour, and also probably worthy of a few more descriptive terms that might get Caleb hot an bothered and trigger happy. I've yet to see any comments from you that haven't already be made, half of the junk you spout about has already been done or work has been started on, and when you've been corrected on your poor assumptions you as highlighted above are assigning malice, Others may disagree, but you are not a force for good, most of your even slightly positive comments are superfluous and your presumption that you are superior to everyone else is much akin to that of duion, he at least gives a damn about the engine, you are a negative force with little or nothing in the way of useful feedback, get back under your bridge and stay there!